Meloni’s Kilpatrick Hearing Blog – Nov. 18

4:26 p.m.

4:25 p.m.

Back in court:

Kwame Kilpatrick back on the stand being cross examined by Athina Siringas… Kilpatrick very forcefully stated he gave the Probation Department everything, all of his financial documents.

Siringas: You never disclosed sir until you got information from Mr. Karmanos we were looking into your loan.

Kilpatrick: No. I am under the jurisdiction of Tarrant County, I was never asked to disclose loan. When I was asked to disclose, I did.

Siringas: You disclosed student loan;

KK: Yes

Siringas: You disclosed other documents

KK: Yes.

Siringas: so you disclosed those items but chose only to disclose the Karmanos etc. loan after you found out we were looking into them and had found out about it?

KK: That is not what happened.

AS: Who is Sandra Ramsay?

KK: A good friend of mine.

AS: Known her for a long time?

KK:Yes

AS:Is whe Dedan Milton and Candia Milton’s mother? [These are former Kilpatrick Administration officials]

KK: Yes.

AS: Did she pay some of your restitution?

KK: did not want to put her name in public. But since it was there, he said I was ordered to pay $22,000 before leaving town to go to Texas. She paid part of that.

3:33 p.m.

Schwartz continues:

In the past 48 hours request made for fax from realtor.

Schwartz: asks FBI agent if he got the fax.

Beckman: says he can not testify because it gets into sensitive federal investigative information.

This is regard to the buyer’s representative agreement put into the report that’s been admitted into the case.

Judge Groner: does not want to violate FBI’s rules and u.s. attorney’s concerns.

Schwartz: wants to keep asking about document.

Judge asks Asst. U.S. Attorney: can the officer answer yes or no…

Kaplan: any discussion of anything in a grand jury subpoena would be in violation.

Schwartz: then if that is the case, then all of this information can not be allowed.

Kaplan: says it’s not true.

Schwartz asks Beckham about buyer’s agreement, whenhe asked for the buyer’s agreement, did you know it exicsted…

Beckham: no

Schwartz: is it the practice of the Federal Government to ask for documents it doesn’t know exist?

Beckham explains broad subpoenas can be offered.

 

2:46 p.m.

Schwartz: to the best of your knowledge, is it a crime to give anyone to give a loan?

Follis: No

Schwartz: Is it a crime to receive a loan?

Follis: No

Asst. Prosecutor Siringas resumes her cross examination:

Asks Follis if he is an officer of Compuware… Follis: Yes.

He’s seen lots of contracts worth millions of dollars? Follis: Yes

Is it your responsibility to make certain contracts are signed and executed properly.

Yes.

Mr. Karmanos relies on you to do things in a trustworty fashion

What you’re telling us is your defense to having the documents is you forgot?

Schwartz: Objection, he has no requirement to have the documents.

Judge Groner says Ms. Siringas, this is your witness, your tone is a little harsh.

Follis: the reason for the documents was to protect the parties it was not meant for any kind of evidence whether there was a loan or not.

Compuware doesn’t do business that way. Generally, we don’t loan money.

Siringas: this agreement had a confidentiality clause?

Follis: Yes.

Schwartz: objects because it’s not what he brought up in his cross.

Judge allows question;

Siringas: reads from the confidentiality agreement. Kwame Kilpatrick was allowed to disclose if required to by law? Yes.

Judge: sustains objection, strikes answer… tells siringas to move on after she attempts to further discuss her line of questioning

Siringas: You said in November 2008 and august 2009, you had not seen the agreement and the promisory note?

Follis: Yes.

Siringas: Mr Karmanos had those documents?

Follis: Yes.

Siringas: How is it you accomplished changing this loan document in march of 2009.

Follis: not sure if it was later than that.

 Cross examination ends, courtroom takes a break.

2:36 p.m.

 

Schwartz cross examination of Dan Follis continues:

 Schwartz wants to know what legal counsel he sought regarding the loans. Yes.

Schwartz says there is no basis in fact that shows Mr. Kilpatrick was getting a gift as opposed to a loan?

Follis: that is correct.

Schwartz: Whose checks did you pick up and actually see?

Follis: Nicholson and Penske.

Schwartz: Did you see the others?

Follis: No.

Schwartz: Who from the prosecutor’s office came to see you?

Follis: Ms. Siringas, Robert Spada [prosecutors in the room working this case today] and a third Robert Moran. They asked for my file. [which he gave them.]

Schwartz: When was this done?

Follis: a weel or two before the October 29th hearing for Kwame Kilpatrick restitution.

2:27 p.m.

Schwartz continues cross examiniation:

 Going over loan documents. They were signed originally in November 2008. Mr. Kilpatrick had not signed the documents. Discusses the dates with Judge Groner when Kwame Kilpatrick was in jail [Oct. 2008 until February 2009].

 Follis was not asked to go to the Wayne County jail and get Kwame Kilpatrick’s signature on the loan document while he was in jail and knows of noone who would have been asked to do so.

Follis does not remember witnessing the signature of Mr. Karmanos going onto the loan agreement. He does remember Nicholson and Penske’s.

 When John Rakolta Jr. pulled out of the loan agreement Follis redrafted a new loan agreement with just Nicholson, Gilbert, Penske and Karmanos. He asked permission to do so in an email alerting them to the fact that Rakolta did not want to participate. Follis told the business leaders they did not have to sign the new document because they’d signed the previous agreement.

 

 

 

2:22 p.m.

 Asst. Prosecutor Siringas finishes questioning.

 Judge Groner looks for clarificaiton, elicits from Follis he had never received the money from Dan Gilbert, but did pass along promisory notes [contracts] to all parties regarding the loans.

 Michael Alan Schwartz cross examines.

He asks Follis if there were any discussion of making the loans a gift? No, said Follis.

He asks “Do you know anything at all, any facts that the agreement between the four men and Kwame Kilpatrick was anything other than a loan?” Follis: No.

1:35 p.m .

 

Kwame Kilpatrick restitution hearing resumes.

 Judge David Groner notes the hearing started late, Kwame Kilpatrick and his attorney Michael Alan Schwartz were late and the judge reminded everyone on the import of starting on time.

 Back on the stand: Dan Follis, corporate counsel to Compuware. He resumes testimony of yesterday.

Deputy Prosecutor Athina Siringas continues questioning. She is looking to get more information out of Follis regarding his legal file containing the loan agreement between Kwame Kilpatrick and six Detroit business leaders.

 Follis testified about the notes he took regarding Saturday, May 31st, 10am meeting with Kym Worthy at Peter Karmanos’ office at Compuware. It was the day of the race for the cure … Item that came up @ the meeting if Kwame Kilpatrick resigned making sure family gets taken care of. Follis was not there and was only told about this item coming up. Follis is asked whether the attempts to get Kilpatrick to resign if his family is taken care of and says he does not know for certain because he was not there.

 Kwame Kilpatrick again today wearing a brown pinstripe suit [different than yesterday's.] with a white shirt and a striped tie. He sat quietly. Once again, the courtroom is filled with bailiffs, six of whom flank the judge on either side. The courtroom is less crowded than yesterday, with fewer onlookers in the courtroom. There are still the phalanx of cameras, both video and still.

 Follis testifies he gathered the money from the big five business leaders regarding the money. Roger Penske, Jim Nicholson, Peter Karmanos and Dan Gilbert… Karmanos had two checks, two for $30,000 that were picked up a few days apart. Mr. Penske gave his loan money before Kwame Kilpatrick left jail. Follis testifies he was not present for much of this transaction.

 Follis testifies he heard from IRS and FBI agents by phone regarding these loans.

 Michael Alan Schwartz objects to the relevancy of this line of questioning.

Judge sustains the objection.

 Siringas moves on: She asks about what he told the FBI and IRS, saying John Rakolta Jr.’s name had been removed from the loan documents. The loan went from $300,000 to $240,000.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert Kaplan appears before Judge Groner to alert him to the fact any time a special agent appears on the stand he/she must have representation. Judge Groner says it was not his understanding that was the case. But allowed the agent to take the stand.

 Called to the stand: Special Agent with the FBI Robert Beckman

Siringas: wants to know what the agent knows about

1106 LaPaloma in South Lake, Texas:

Roxanne Taylor and Assoc. real estate… he called realtor.

Siringas wants to know more about what he found out about

Buyer’s rep for Kwame and Carlita discussed rental of different homes… Showed LaPaloma address and had meetings at his office with Kwame and Carlita.

Siringas: did Kwame sign the buyer’s rep. agreemnt?

Beckman: yes.

Siringas: how many times did they meet?

B: Yes

AS: Did Kwame discuss rent cost of the home?

B: Yes.

AS: Did Mr. Kilpatrick sign the lease?

B: no he did not

AS: Were there meetings with Carlita regarding the lease.

B: Carlita negotiated the lease but called Kwame on the phone to check whether he agreed with the figures.

AS: He was aware of the lease, terms of the lease, aware of all relevant information of LaPaloma, just didn’t sign lease?>

B: Yes.

 In discussing a summary of his notes from the case, Agent Beckham then gets questioned by Michael Alan Schwartz. Schwartz wants to know how the report was compiled. Beckman says from notes. Schwartz wants to knwo where the notes are. In Beckman’s office… Schwartz wants document on the home not included because of lack of notes. Judge allows questioning to continue. Siringas says she has no more questions.

Schwartz goes to cross examing FBI Agent.

Wants to know why he was called to testify in this case on Monday of this week.

Beckman said he was called by the Wayne County Prosecutor’s office, asking for the specifics of the interview with the Real Estate deal.

Schwartz wants to know why the Wayne County Prosecutor’s office waited until now when they could have asked for this information months ago?

Beckman: knows something. When Wayne County Prosecutor’s office called Texas they could get no answers on the phone.

Schwartz asks if he knows amount of lease:

Beckman: no, the realtor could not remember.

Schwartz continues asking specifics about when and how many meetings there were with the realtor regarding the lease,

Beckman: the realtor could not remember how many meetings there were.

Schwartz: did he overhear the phone conversation:

Beckman: He said he heard Carlita’s conversation.

Schwartz: how long was the call?

Beckman: doesn’t know.

Schwartz: Did she say what was said?

Beckman: No.

Schwartz: Did you ask Mr. Fielding what Mr. Kilpatrick said to Carlita you on the phone?

Beckman: No.

S: Wat was Mr. Fielding recollection of the conversation:

B: He was attempting to negotiate from the other side and make certain Kwame Kilpatrick was involved in the negotiations.

S: What did he hear Mrs. Kilpatrick say to Mr. Kilpatrick?

B: I don’t know, I didn’t ask.

Schwartz: You have no way of knowing what Mrs. Kilpatrick was talking to him about Mr. Kilpatrick.

B: No. He didn’t particularly say what was said. He said Mrs. Kilpatrick needed his ascent to make the lease.

Schwartz: asks a lot of questions… hard to follow… withdraws.

 

 

AS: Asks how much she paid?

KK: $10,000

AS: Later did she pay part of your restitution?

KK: I thought it was somebody else. Yes, she did… Kwame laughs

AS: On February 4th, you had $150,000 in checks that you signed over to your wife.

KK: I didn’t have the money, she did.

KK: It was a loan to my wife, I did not know that would go to restitution… nothing in my restitution says that loans count.

KK: She has her own accounts and it’s going on the sheet and everyone married in the room knows that can’t be the same thing.

AS: Did you repay Sandra Ramsay

If we look at all these records

AS: So you don’t even know who is paying your restitution?

KK: That’s not true.

AS: Did you get money from Dedan Milton?

KK: He has paid some, he is a close friend.

AS: Yesterday you testified you paid all the restitution.

KK: I said other people would go to the window for me, I paid that money or I would have someone go to the window and I would pay them.

names Jeffrey Beasley.

AS: wants to know more about him,

KK: I won’t go there.

AS: Showing Kwame Kilpatrick a picture… an exhibit not in evidence… Who is this gentleman?

KK:Dedan Milton.

AS: This is the person you said you had paid your restitution?

KK: Dedan paid the money, I thought it came from him, but you just showed me how his mother gave the money to do that.

AS: Why is Dedan Milton going to the post office getting one thousand dollar checks to help pay your restitution

KK: I don’t know what Dedan

AS: There are so many people giving you money you don’t even know who they are?

Schwartz: Objection… argumentative

Groner: sustained.

 

 

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