
4:42 p.m.
Still discussing the loan agreement with Dan Follis, Karmanos attorney.
Mr. Rakolta decided not to participate in the loan. The prosecution wants to know whether the attorney made the change from $300,000 to $240,000 after the original $150,000 was dispursed. The assumption was the first half of the money [1/2 of $300,000]… It’s not adding up according to the prosecution. Why distribute half of the loan money when one of the lenders backed out?
Judge wants to end hearing @ 4:35PM
Siringas asks more questions: Mr. Karmanos told you before Febuary 9th he gave Kwame Kilpatrick $150,000?
Follis: yes.
4:41 p.m.
On the stand, Peter Karmanos’ attorney Dan Follis discussing the $60,000 loan given to Kwame Kilpatrick by his client. It’s to start getting paid back by the former mayor a year from now. The Mayor is supposed to pay the loan back on a quarterly schedule of 2000 payments… Annually that’s about $8000. The prosecution is intimating this loan is designed not to be paid back. Legally, that money becomes a gift to Kwame Kilpatrick if he does not have pay it back… And since it is less than $12,500… the Federal Gift Tax threshold… Karmanos does not have to pay gift tax.
Now we’re getting into the loan agreement to Kwame Kilpatrick. The loan given to Kilpatrick was for $260,000… from Peter Karmanos, Roger Penske, Jim Nicholson and Dan Gilbert. But, it is coming out in court now that on the documents John Rakolta, of The Walbridge Aldinger Construction Company [Detroit] was also included in an original loan payment to Kwame Kilpatrick of $300,000. Rakolta originally was supposed to also donate $60,000 to the Kilpatrick loan. But in the end, Rakolta apparently did not give any money in the loan… Rakolta is a well known donor to the Democratic Party and Rakolta’s company did the Construction of the Compuware Building. Mr. Rakolta was deleted from the loan agreement.
The proseuction says Kwame Kilpatrick signed the original loan document for $300,000.
3:50 p.m.
Schwartz now argues the documents should not be allowed into this hearing. THis is not misleading, it is misrepresentation. He says the document does not meet the prosecutor’s claims of the previous hearing contained $1.16 million dollars… when the math is not correct, reflects loans that should not be included and in the end the accounts should have somewhere in the neighborhood of $340,000. Schwartz believes the prosecutiron is portraying Kilpatrick has more money than he does and knowingly done. Asks the documents be striken from the record.
Groner: says his documents in question are the same.
Assistant Prosecutor Siringas pleads state law says summaries are admissable. It is an accurate summary… wanted to amend it, mistake by $3000 and wants to fix that mistake. She wants both
court will not allow 38-a and 29
Ms. Siringas you tried to mislead: you made a statement that the defendent had more than one million dollars and the media ran with it. It is a misstatement of facts. That was not an accurate statement of facts. There were transfers. All it does is give the court records it already has. I don’t need the summary. your conclusions or totals are misleading. These are just numbers. The witness could not answer whether the $240,000 or $65,000 are.
You say there are $770 odd thousand dollars availalbe to pay. To let these documents in is probative, your summaries are misleading that is why the court is not allowing them in.
AS: this is a hearing, rules of evidence don’t apply. With all due respect to the court. All I asked the defendent last time is would you agree these are additions and subtractions into these accounts. Because the media runs with something, we don’t go around talking to the media like Mr. Schwartz. For the court to say that the findings are not accurate.
judge: it’s the total, 1.16… you made it sound like he had a million dollars deposited into his account.
AS: with all due respect. If he had access to $775,000. The rest of the evidence shows there were inter-account transfers… whether it’s money that the court can see. It is up to the court to hear all of the testimony. He had $770,000 available to him. Exhibit 39 shows money in and money out. What he spent, nothing in here is inaccurate.
[things are getting tense.. the judge just gave Siringas 2 minutes]
This is a closing arguement… make it later, you are trying to upstaging the court.
I’ve made my ruling!
Any more witnesses.
AS wants to recall the defendant.
As the testimony carries on, one thing becomes clear. The accounts the Mayor maintained with his wife… five accounts really contain more than three quarters of a million dollars. There was considerable money moving in and out of these accounts. Attorney Schwartz is quibbling over whether this money came from outside sources or inside sources. But the bottom line here is, these are not small accounts. It is clear the prosecutor’s office wants to show that the former mayor clearrly has the means to pay his restitution.
3:16 p.m.
The prosecutor’s office worker says the documents they are working on are spread sheets and cover five different accounts and can watch inflows and outflows.
The prosecutor’s office finished questioning.
Michael Schwartz steps up. Finds out Tommy Nafso is a lawyer in training also getting his MBA from U of
D Mercy and has an economics degree from Oakland University. Schwartz wants to put one of the documents in question on the tv screen.
Judge admonishes the tv cameras to not shoot the tv screen… threatens trouble if he sees it on the news tonight.
Schwartz wants to know how he went about compiling documents. Took numbers off of bank statements.
Schwartz: At the time did anyone actually ask you to find out what money was coming in from the outside and determine the transfers.
Nafso:No
Schwartz: what were you told to do regarding compiling documents
Nafso: I was asked to look for red flags.
Schwartz: have you ever done anything like this before?
Nafso: No.
Schwartz: has anyone ever shown you how to use this program
Nafso: No
Schwartz: Have you ever testified?
Nafso: No
Schwartz: do you have a degree in accounting>?
Nafso: No.
Schwartz want to know about the items changed.
Nafso: I changed three items.
Schwartz: Isn’t it a fact that if a statement ends one month that the next month should start with the exact same number?
Nafso: I don’t know, but it makes sense.
Schwartz: what could possible change where the ending balance and the beginning balance could change.
Nafso: say something clears on the end of a statement before the other is posted. I don’t work at a bank.
Schwartz: so you’re just guessing?
Nafso: I am not guessing, I don’t know.
The testimony continues… but because we do not have the documents, this is impossible to follow!]
2:45 p.m.
Court back in session.
On the stand now, Tommy Nafso of the Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office. He is testifying to how he assembled the Kilpatrick bank documents. He is giving very specific information about how numbers were assembled. We can not follow because the documents he is discussing are not public.
Schwartz objects to the way Siringas is asking quesions; Judge overrules
judge makes it clear the former mayor says the numbers are correct, but the conclusions are not.
2:36 p.m. AS: asks if the former mayor knows whether he must reveal all financial information to probation.
KK: Yes.
AS: Back then, did you have a Harley Davidson Motorcycle?
KK: Yes
AS: Did you disclose that to probation?
KK: No.
AS: You didn’t tell anyone about this asset until recently.
KK: That’s absolutely true.
AS: You kept your Harley Davidson at Bobby Ferguson’s home didn’t you?
Schwartz: Objection, relevance?
AS: Says it shows how the former mayor was hiding assets.
Judge sustains objection.
AS: You were ordered to pay restitution to this court.
KK: Yes.
AS: What is your understanding of the court’s ruling?
KK: 30% of my income.
AS: How do you physically make these payments.
KK: Don’t understand.
AS: Did you tell other people to bring the money to the courthouse.
KK: I probably did that the first time and then it was known I had to pay by the 15th at that time.
AS: Who paid that, different people?
KK: I think everyone in the state knows. I paid
KK: There’s nobody that came out and paid it. I paid it! It would be better for me to sent the dollars to Detroit and have someone bring it to the window than mailing it to the building.
When you see me missing by a couple of hours what kind of news story that creates.
1:55 p.m.
Squabble over report shown to probation office.
AS gives KK a report from probation. wants to know if there is any notation listed about him receiving $150,000.
Objection from Schwartz about lack of legal foundation.
Judge rules it’s proper, overruled.
AS: Did you disclose to probation whether you received $150,000. Yes or No! Objected to… Schwartz says prosecution is making speeches Judge says “If you would sit down maybe he could answer”
KK: tried to speak.
Judge: Stop, yes or no, answer the question.
AS: Did you tell officer Roach verbally or in writing you have received $150,000 on February 4th.
KK: tries to answer. Schwartz objects: Mayor can’t recall what happened on February 4th unless he has magical powers.
AS: says she is asking about
KK: No I did not tell him.
AS: says that’s all I wanted to know.
Judge admonishes, “That’s improper.”
1:43 p.m.
There is a dustup over Carlita Kilpatrick’s involvement in hearings. KK says he can’t speak to wife’s finances.
AS says the judge has ruled Carlita’s money is involved.
Schwartz objects.
Judge rules Carlita’s finances have come up and entered, the former mayor can answer.
Questioning goes on:
Bogging down in NFS “account”. Kwame says he’s confused with NFS line of questioning. Me personally as an account, personal NFS and “Chase are his banks. Under NFS there is a joint account, an account owned by wife, him and sons, 529 account for children’s college.
Now squabble between lawyers over quetsioning.
Judge tells KK to simply answer the questions posed.
Prosecutor AS: Any other joint accounts? KK No.
AS wants to know whether KK was aware of their joint checking account was closed as of October 15th? KK says
I don’t want this to sound sarcastic, but last time we were here you told me. The prosecution has put us all as if we’re on probation, names his kids. Only he is on probation. Says he does not know anything about his wife’s accounts at all.
AS Do you discuss finances in your house?
KK Yes, about the children.
AS: asks about discussing finances with his wife.
Takes the 5th about what he talks to his wife about.
Judge steps in, tells Kwame to just answer the questions.
AS: what do you discuss with your wife?
KK I discuss what I give to her.
AS: You gave her $240,000 as a loan to her?
KK that’s a broad question. I did not transfer all of those loans to my wife.
AS: You signed over $150,000 to your wife?
KK: You have the information, I don’t have the information.
AS: When did you receive the money after you got out of jail.
KK: I answered this already.
Judge: Just answer the question.
KK: says he was in an office
AS: In Michigan?
KK: Yes.
AS: Were you aware your attorneys at that time had requested permission to leave the state for purposes of employment?
KK: Yes.
AS: Feb 12th, an emergency hearing asking to go to Dallas for job training?>
KK: Yes, I don’t know the date.
AS: On February 27th, 2009, were you interviewed by Bret Roach?
KK: Yes along with one other person from probation.
AS: You provided information about your expenses yes?
KK: I gave them a whole folder and an explanation of what was there.
1: 37 P.M.
Former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick takes the stand. The Prosecution asks if the former mayor understands this is a restitution hearing. He says “yes.” His attorney objects. Judge sustains objection.
The judge wants an end to the speeches.
Siringas then asks Kilpatrick to name all banks and the accounts therein since March of 2008 and any financial institution names. Kwame says he can not name them.
In 2008 did you have a checking account? Yes. With whom? Kilpatrick says Chase Bank.
Any others? KK Don’t remember.
Did you have more than five accounts? KK: I don’t think so. I don’t know. Do you not remember? KK argues with prosecutor. Prosecutor wants to set ground rules. Schwartz objects. Judge says just ask questions. Siringas wants yes or no questions unless asked for explanations. KK says “that’s what I’m doing”
Now, back to bank accounts. Kwame still can’t remember. “The bank that I dealt with the most was Chase. Did you have an IRA? Yes. I had mutual funds, IRAs and others. “I can’t rattle that off” the list of institutions he did business. In March 2008, I was Mayor of Detroit, I dealt with multiple institutions. I had funds, funds within funds I had a person directing those funds.
Siringas: Were your private finances handled by you?
KK: I had multuple accounts, in multiple funds managed by someone else at Chase.
Siringas: You had money in our accounts
KK’s Financial Planner is NFS and you have all of that information. “ALL of that information” I still deal with them but there are very small amounts of money in there. Siringas: less thatn $1000? I don’t know. KK there is no NFS account, they manage the money in several different areas and the reports come from different entities.
1:20 p.m.
The former mayor’s attorney questions why this hearing is taking place at all, he does not believe there is any legal reason to be here.
Asst. Prosecutor Siringas got up, cited state law pertaining to restitution hearings, said the former mayor has selective memory and only responds to inquiries and subpoenas after they arrive and get brought up in court.
Television is not necessary, going to give people information who have nothing to do with the case personal information. Schwartz says information that is usually sealed or kept out of public view and is dissemenated. He claims there is illegal activity happening as a result of the information put on the screen. He says the mayor’s accounts are frozen as a result of that criminal activity. There has been damage already done. Wants television set removed.
Siringas says it’s a public hearing, the former mayor generates considerable interest, in the light of full transparency this should be open to everyone. The prosecutor’s office has done nothing to encourage ID theft. She is suspicious, all of a sudden all of his accounts are frozen, and now that we’re in the midst of this hearing the mayor closes down his joint checking account. The Prosecutor’s office says it’s kept private information and does not believe the mayor’s closing of his accounts is as his lawyer says it is.
The court believes it’s a relevant hearing. There was never an objection to television last hearing…
Schwartz says he was not given subpoenas in advance. He can’t speak for the banks. He says rules are violated. All the Prosecution needs to do is call the Bank of America Security Department to find out what’s going.
Judge denies the motion to stop hearing. He requires Prosecution to hide all personal information that could cause ID theft.
1:10 p.m.
Just as last time, the proceedings in the Kwame Kilpatrick hearing have moved to the sixth floor of the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice. Judge David A. Groner presiding. His courtroom is usually on the 4th floor, but have moved into judge Kenny’s courtroom because of the need for more space. Assistant Prosecutor Athina Siringas and Assistant Prosecutor Robert Spada represent Wayne County. Defense Attorney Michael Alan Schwartz represents former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. Promptly at 1pm the former mayor entered the courtroom and sat down. Then decided to get up and leave the courtroom, apparently for a rest room break. Just then Judge David Groner entered the courtroom to start the hearing and the former mayor was gone. We now sit and wait.
At 1:04pm, Kwame Kilpatrick stepped into the courtroom in a brown pinstripe suit, pink shirt and patterned tie. His attorney Michael Alan Schwartz now pleading. He says the Judge has questions, the mayor answered last time. He believes the Prosecution is advancing material that he has no knowledge of. he also questions whether it’s germain to these proceedings who gave the former mayor loans.
KK: I borrowed money to pay it.
AS: From Whom
Objection from Schwarts: not relevant, loans are not assets.
Judge: why would it be relevant to bring out that person in court.
AS: Someone is paying for his restitution, he says he does not have the money to pay. Mr. Schwartz hasn’t taken an accounting class, but a loan is an asset. We’re here to find out what that is. We keep seeing money showing up and
AS: Who did you borrow it from sir?
I paid it back.
AS: Who was it that gave you that loan?
KK: I’m going to take the fifth.
[A groan fills the courtoom]
AS: Asks again about paying specific dates
KK explains: “if I have to pay $3000 that day, and I don’t have it then someone helps me with it and I pay them back… It’s tough making these payments every month.”
AS wants to use a specific document, the judge and the defense are having trouble finding it and then want time to look it over. There’s a pause in the proceedings.
The courtroom is nearly filled as it was last time. the courtroom itself is filled with bailiffs, 7 of them, mostly flanking the judge and the courtroom door. People continue moving in and out of the courtroom. there are half a dozen television cameras trained on the former mayor and the attornies. There are at least as many still cameras in the area immediately to the former mayor’s left.
The hearing continues: Schwartz explains he believes the documents the prosecution wants to work from and created are misleading and the judge agrees. He sustains the objection.
won’t allow it in.
AS: Inquires about voire dire… pre-trial question… offers to put the officer from her office who created the document. Judge denies the document.
AS: Moves to ask question about the document… won’t admit document… direct you to a specific area on the document. 7th entry down from the top. It indicates Kwame and Carlita checking account. Schwartz objects, saying reading off of a document not in evidence is improper. Judge denies.
AS: You made a payment of $6000, restitution paid?
KK: Yes, that’s what the documsnt says.
AS: Statement beginning balance $22,215
KK: Yes, I see it.
AS: It was a
KK: I disagree with this document. This document is very misleading and wrong. I’ll agree with the opening balance.
AS: moves to another document exhibit #34. Carlita checking account and KK checking account: exhibit #36 another
Carlita checking account and people’s exhibit #37… another Carlita Checking account… offers a document that will only have the last four digits of an account number.
KK: That’s enough!
1
:56 p.m.
Schwartz motions to have documents supressed and ruled out.
Judge denies.
AS: angrily says the former spent more than $755,000 in one year and is now trying to tell us he can not pay restitution when he is living like a millionaire!
Schwartz: angrily disarees, says prosecution is Speechifying through the press.
Assistant Prosecutor Spada jumps up ans says we faxed Mr. Schwartz a subpoena to you that was sent to Kwame and Carlita Kilpatrick for all bank records the we did not get anything: we got nothing!
Schwartz: I do not represent Carlita Kilpatrick. This is a chance to bash the Kilpatricks
Judge reminded Schwartz he gives speeches too. Objection is overruled, highly relevant.
Agrees with Mr. Spada, subpoena sent, never responded to. It’s exactly what this hearing is for. Perhaps KK can explain why he only gave some information to this court.
Proceedings quiet down… Judge says to AS follow the rules, do what you have to do, just follow the rules.
document went up on television… if it’s under a protective order, why is it going on camera… just show me and the defendant. Please turn off the television.
AS: We will your honor.
AS: Searching for document… joint account. They finally get to it. They start reading about account amounts. starting with more than $22,000. In one month there were
KK: What I think is misleading is the transfers in the accounts. I’m saying if I deposited $10,000 account and my wife took a thousand and put it in her account you show it as $16,000 when it’s not. [Math getting hard to follow here!]
AS: Let’s move to May 13th, I’m going to give you some records.
KK: I would agree that the information is OK as long
Now there’s an arguement over bank records…
AS: The document, do you disagree… it would you agree the beginning balance $50,467 in beginning… ending balance of $14,616.
AS: Now handing KK another document. Ask you to verify these numbers [on the prosecutor's documents previously fought over]. He looks at it… offers to hand it off to video cameras. KK says one of the numbers is wrong.
Schwartz objects.
AS: wants to know if KK objects to the document.
KK: having trouble following the math
Schwartz: since Mr. Kilpatrick did not create the document, offer to have prosecutor’s office document creator go on the stand.
Kilpatrick steps down. There is a witness coming to the stand. The Judge takes a ten minute break.
Courtroom… which is getting quite warm, is clearning out.
2:23 p.m.Hearing continues:
Court back in session;
On the stand now, Tommy Nafso of the Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office. He is testifying to how he assembled the Kilpatrick bank documents. He is giving very specific information about how numbers were assembled. We can not follow because the documents he is discussing are not public.
Schwartz objects to the way Siringas is asking quesions; Judge overrules
judge makes it clear the former mayor says the numbers are correct, but the conclusions are not.